Better yet, have they gone through the hang around or prospect period? Until of course their number was called. Your colors are not respected here in the states because of what you recruited. In 1968, during the beginning of the gang war, Devils Disciples member Clermont Lemire was sentenced to seven years in prison for raping a 20-year-old woman who he had picked up Papineau St. and taken to the club's headquarters on Casgrain St. where the act occurred. There are several legal bases for this result: there is no risk of confusion between the commentator and the trademark owner, and nominative fair use may protect this use of the trademark owner's mark. [14], Later in June of the same year, a total of over 100 bikers belonging both to the Popeye Moto Club and the Devil's Disciples clashed in a large-scale fight in which chains and clubs were used as melee weapons. In any event, to defeat a trademark dilution claim, you do not even need to show that your use is noncommercial. On an occasion when him and his band members were eating at a restaurant in downtown Montreal, members of the Devil's Disciples Motorcycle Club shot at him. The skeleton is wearing a helmet emblazoned with a swastika. The headquarters of the club are in Clinton Charter Township, Michigan, Port Huron, Michigan, and Detroit and there are around 150 full-patched members in the club. This article is related to the Massachusetts founded club, however there is also a club in Fontana, California club, who are known as the Devils Diciples MCand were founded in 1967. Their insignia is a motorcycle wheel with two tridents crossing over it. Detailed history of the club is sketchy at best, but it is believed that the club were founded around the Revere/Lynn area, which is 5 miles northeast of downtown Boston. Then he told her she could get out of the charges if she performed oral sex on him, according to the affidavit. For over three decades, the Devils Diciples spread fear, violence and their poisonous drugs throughout Michigan and the country, said United States Attorney Matthew Schneider. This brings to a close, in part, the years long effort of the federal government to bring down the leadership of a dangerous organized crime biker gang that terrorized innocent victims throughout the United States. The case was investigated by the FBI, the Michigan State Police, the Macomb County Sheriffs Office and the County of Macomb Enforcement Team (COMET), with assistance from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and the St. Clair County Sheriffs Office. ", "Montreal Crystal Meth Biker War of 1975: Blood flows as the Devils Disciples implode", "Ellefsen (Claude) - la Mmoire du Qubec", "How Canada's Most Prolific Hit Man Turned Informant on the Hells Angels", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Devil%27s_Disciples_Motorcycle_Club_(Canada)&oldid=1117612835, Pages using infobox criminal organization with rivals parameter, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 22 October 2022, at 17:24. The Devils Diciples Motorcycle Club (DDMC) is an outlaw motorcycle club that was founded in Fontana, California in 1967. For decades, the Devils Diciples operated regional chapters in cities throughout Michigan, Alabama, Arizona, California, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, and engaged in . Carbon County Judge David W. Addy accepted the plea, but deferred sentencing. A former Lansford police officer admitted Thursday that he solicited sex from a borough woman he was investigating on drug charges. Insane Throttle Support Club Become a memberNow, Insane Throttle/Motorcycle Madhouse Radio YouTube and AudioDisclaimer, Meet the Insane Throttle Contributing Columnist James Hollywood Macecari, Motorcycle Clubs Riding Clubs and Associations Near Me Index &Listings, Our Policies here at Insane Throttle Publications. Vandiver was the National Warlord or enforcer of the gang. The Devil's Disciples were founded as a self-proclaimed "purely French" club sometime during the 1960s. Inside the Arizona clubhouse, the victims were bound with duct tape and zip ties, and severely beaten with baseball bats, firearms, tasers, knives, and other weapons. Foreign Clubs continue to recruit the bottom of thebarrel. [24] Pierre's girlfriend would later disappear on July 17. If convicted, he could face up to 20 years on the drug charge and up to 10 years for possession of the rifle. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Heres the thing about flags, especially in Chicago. Civil rights complaints may also be made online at this linkusamie.civilrights@usdoj.gov. The conflict originated after the Ontario-based Satan's Choice Motorcycle Club branched out into Quebec in 1967, establishing a chapter in Montreal and aligning themselves with the Devil's Disciples, as they were rivals to the Popeyes. Members, commonly referred to as full patched members, are required to own Harley Davidson motorcycles and are required to follow orders from the gangs leadership, including orders to assault, threaten and intimidate others, to transport and distribute drugs, to lie to law enforcement and to hide or destroy evidence. They are a military based club and are in no way related to the club discussed in this article. The Roadrunners have a clubhouse in Chicago. They both had fake DD patches made and we knew the road runners were hanging out with them while they were wearing the fake patches. Did you bother doing a basic background check on these ass-monkeys? [14] As of July 2015, sentencing had been delayed until 2016.[15]. The case is being prosecuted by the U.S. Attorneys Office for the Eastern District of Michigan, and the Criminal Divisions Organized Crime and Gang Section. Their insignia is a motorcycle wheel with two tridents crossing over it. This article is about the American outlaw motorcycle club. an AOA support club. There are no known famous members in the Devils Desciples in a celebrity sense. They do not care who they recruit. documentary 2016. The Devils Diciples Motorcycle Club (DDMC) is an outlaw motorcycle club that was founded in Fontana, California in 1967. See 15 U.S.C. Additionally, the evidence showed that Smith possessed state and federal law enforcement manuals regarding outlaw motorcycle gangs marked For Official Use Only and Law Enforcement Sensitive, and numerous documents related to criminal matters involving members of the Devils Diciples, including police reports, search warrants, affidavits, indictments and witness interview transcripts. Devils Diciples MCis a one percenter motorcycle club founded in Fontana, California in 1967. [12] Furthermore, the Devil's Disciples were also participants in the notable gang war between Satan's Choice and the Popeye Moto Club. They were originally a club made up of black members, but quickly invited white members to join, making them one of the first, if not the first, mixed-race one percenter motorcycle club. Detailed history of the club is sketchy at best, but it is believed that the club were founded around the Revere/Lynn area, which is 5 miles northeast of downtown Boston. [11], July 2012, 31 Devils Diciples members in Michigan and Alabama were arrested by the FBI. So much for club protocol. In the United States, the club has chapters in Alabama, Arizona, California, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, and Ohio. He is a boyhood friend of their National President Jeff Garvin Smith. After a three-month trial, a federal jury in the Eastern District of Michigan convicted three members of the Devils Diciples Motorcycle Gang today for their participation in various criminal. Additionally, the evidence showed that members of the gang possessed state and federal law enforcement manuals regarding outlaw motorcycle gangs marked For Official Use Only and Law Enforcement Sensitive, and numerous documents related to criminal matters involving members of the Devils Diciples, including police reports, search warrants, affidavits, indictments and witness interview transcripts. Jason J. Giranda, 29, of Hazleton, pleaded guilty to a felony charge of tampering with public records and two misdemeanor charges, including unsworn falsifications to authorities. Suspected informants or members who failed to follow the gangs rules were frequently thrown out of the gang, or run down the road. The evidence showed that when a member was stripped of his membership, the gang seized the members property and motorcycle, by violent means if necessary. Beerens would later be found dead at his apartment in the suburbs of Montreal on January 19 of 1975. According to evidence presented at trial, the Devils Diciples (which the group intentionally misspell) is a motorcycle gang with its national headquarters in Clinton Township, Michigan. Banks take on gun industry: The assault on our 2nd amendment begins. Buffalo Soldiers Motorcycle Club Springfield Massachusetts. The gang had a longstanding feud with the infamous Dubois Brothers, a criminal organization that was also a participant in the area's drug trade.[10][11]. 0:32. Giranda left the residence with the alleged paraphernalia.. They are one of the largest one percenter motorcycle clubs in the United Kingdom. 2nd Amendment Rights are under fire like no other time inhistory, The Riot And The Photo That Made Bikers Into Outlaws- The American Motorcyclist Association Gypsy Tour that made Motorcyclismhistory, https://www.facebook.com/Finks-Mc-1763156923998984/, https://www.facebook.com/roadrunnersmcworld/, An Australian Perspective on the Finks Move to the United States: Update to yesterdays article Insane Throttle Biker News, Pagans Motorcycle Club Causing Panic in Missouri, The Pagans MC is Coming the Pagans Are coming #shorts, MIKLO 1% LOS Perros MC Responds on the 4 for the road interview, Ep 936 Pagans Motorcycle Club Causing Panic in Missouri **FULL AUDIOEPISODE**, Pagans Motorcycle Club Causing Panic in Missouri**Video**, IS THE HARLEY SPORTSTER CONSIDERED A GIRLS MOTORCYCLE**VIDEO**, Miklo 1% from the Los Perros MC and Curator of MC Life. Specifically, the evidence showed that at Smiths direction, individuals including members and associates of the gang were beaten and robbed, and that Smith also participated in this activity directly. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Members, commonly referred to as full patched members, are required to own Harley Davidson motorcycles and are required to follow orders from the gangs leadership, including orders to assault, threaten and intimidate others, to transport and distribute drugs, to lie to law enforcement and to hide or destroy evidence. Four additional members of the Devils Disciples were alleged to have been involved in the rape incident. Devils Diciples MC Patch Logo Devils Diciples MC History The Devils Diciples Motorcycle Club was founded in Fontana, California in 1967. Bacchus MC Clubhouse Halifax Canada Bacchus MC History Bacchus was founded in Albert County, New Brunswick in Canada. Contact our office at 313-226-9634 or email us at USAMIE.EJ@usdoj.gov or visit our web page HERE for more information. Please share our articles to help us grow. **FULLVIDEO**, https://insanethrottleinternational.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/discord-commercial-harley.mp3, https://insanethrottleinternational.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/motorcyclemadhousemayhempromo.mp3. Additionally, the evidence demonstrated that in 2012, at a bar in Chesterfield Township, Michigan, Drozdowski and another Devils Diciples member assaulted a perceived rival motorcycle gang member for being present in Devils Diciples territory. Only later did the club establish a chapter in Las Vegas, commonly known as "Sin City". For those who paid the ultimate price in your country, they did it in vain. The number is 313-226-9151. More than 60 firearms and more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition were seized during this investigation. They were founded in Albert County, located in New Brunswick in 1972. They in fact had the nuts to display them around town. 0:00. Such clubs are not sanctioned by the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) and do not adhere to the AMA's rules. They dont consider it Chi-Raq for nothing. Johnny Hallyday chappe aux Hells Angels (Hiver 1970)", "Tony Frank: "Avec Johnny, on nous a tir dessus balles relles!" . However, it was disarmed before it was able to do any damage. Like most motorcycle clubs, Brother Speed Motorcycle Club was founded by a group of friends who enjoyed riding Harley Davidson motorcycles. Note the different spelling of Desciples/Diciples. "These defendants were responsible for violence and trafficking in methamphetamine in Macomb County and across the country, said U.S. Attorney McQuade. 1125(c)(3)(A)(ii). According to evidence presented at these trials, the Devils Diciples (which is intentionally misspelled) is a motorcycle gang with its national headquarters in Clinton Township, Michigan. [23], A decomposed body is found floating in the St. Lawrence River on May 9 of the same year. Members must ride a Harley Davidson motorcycle and. As a result, the Devil's Disciples responded by making public death threats towards Johnny Hallyday. However, in the early days of the club, some founding members went to Mexico to have their patches made, and the misspelling was unintentional, but stuck. [1] The club originally had six members, there is a misconception that the word "disciples" was intentionally misspelled to distance themselves from any type of religion. They only care about that United States bottom rocker displayed as a trophy on their Facebook Pages. Here is what I think. But note that some courts may find your use of a trademark for criticism and commentary to be commercial if you host advertising or link to commercial websites. Following a second, four-month trial in 2015, additional members of the Devils Diciples were convicted. [24][23], On January 21 of 1975, Richard "Le Chat" Blass and his assistant Fernand Beaudet shot and killed 13 individuals at the Gargantua Bar at 1369 Beaubien E. Blass was killed by police three days later on January 24 following a manhunt. By Peter Edwards Staff Reporter Wed., June 17, 2020 timer 2 min. We were told by the Road Runners they were there friends and just couldnt stop hanging out with them. 6 editions ANDY - I got a job next door to a tattooed biker n Want to Read Rate it: Book 2 Cash by Scott Hildreth JUST VIDEO. They were former members of the Legacy M/C. The Devils Desciples patch consists of a skeleton riding a chopper. The #1 Biker News Website Since 2011-Covering up to minute biker news including Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs & Biker News Worldwide. The former National President of the Devils Diciples Motorcycle Club (DDMC), Jeff Garvin Smith, aka Fat Dog, 64, of Mt. Lessard is notorious for organizing the Lennoxville massacre that would occur in 1985. The FBI, our state and local partners and the US Attorneys offices across the region will not rest until all who would harm the peace and safety of our residents are brought to justice, regardless of where those threats originate.. Drozdowski and the other Devils Diciples member then ripped the leather vest off of the unconscious victim. Both Castano and Drozdowski were found guilty of engaging in a methamphetamine trafficking conspiracy, with Drozdowski being found guilty of a separate count of manufacturing methamphetamine, and Castano being found guilty of engaging in a marijuana trafficking conspiracy. Such clubs are not sanctioned by the American Motorcyclist Association and do not adhere to the AMA's rules. To the Finks. The other outlaw motorcycle club active in the area were the Hells Angels MC. Brother Speed MC Logo Patch Brother Speed MC History Brother Speed Motorcycle Club are a one percenter motorcycle club founded in Boise, Idaho in May of 1969. The Devils Diciples operated regional chapters in cities throughout Michigan, Alabama, Arizona, California, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and elsewhere, and engaged in criminal activities for financial gain. The Devil's Desciples Motorcycle Club were founded in 1966 in Massachusetts. Both women initially told police they were with Giranda at Binders home. Our Civil Rights hotline is available for anyone who may have suffered a violation of their civil rights. Carbon County Assistant District Attorney Joseph Matika, who is prosecuting, said he would not comment until after Giranda is sentenced. [9] The club dealt large amounts of drugs around St. Louis Square - specifically amphetamines, methamphetamine and PCP. A 2013 report by the Massachusetts State Police Gang Unit lists that. In the United States, the club has chapters in Alabama, Arizona, California, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Mississippi and Ohio. A former Lansford police officer admitted Thursday that he solicited sex from a borough woman he was investigating on drug charges. In 2006, Castano was charged in federal court in the Eastern District of Michigan with Marijuana trafficking, felon-in-possession of a firearm and possession of a firearm during a drug trafficking offense. Even if you knew they were out bad from the DD, I genuinely dont think your club would give a damn anyway. #DEVILSDICIPLES #HELLSANGELS #MOTORCYCLECLUBBAKERSFIELD, Calif. (KGET) A biker gang member has pleaded no contest Russell Raymond Vannoy faces six years in. Additionally, the evidence demonstrated that in 2012, at a bar in Chesterfield Township, Michigan, Drozdowski and another Devils Diciples member assaulted a man who they mistaken believed to be a rival motorcycle gang member for being present in Devils Diciples territory. [17], In March 1969, as the notorious turf war with the Popeyes was going on, famed French musician Johnny Hallyday came to Quebec for a tour. Smiths sentencing arises out of his having been convicted of several offenses after a six-month jury trial in 2014-2015 in federal court in the Eastern District of Michigan. [1] The club originally had six members, there is a misconception that the word "disciples" was intentionally misspelled to distance themselves from any type of religion. This happens because these Foreign clubs sell their patch so they can claim a foothold in the United States. U.S. v. Farid FataArchive of Fata Facilitator Website www.FataClaims.com, Archive of Fata Facilitator Website www.FataClaims.com. After a four-month trial, a federal jury in the Eastern District of Michigan convicted six members of the Devils Diciples Motorcycle Gang today, including the national president, national vice president and national warlord, for their participation in various criminal acts, including violent crimes in aid of racketeering, methamphetamine production and trafficking, illegal firearms offenses . They were arrested and tried for the crime sometime subsequently. It is alleged that Caron's death was a result from the fact that she had information about the Devil's Disciples' drug dealing operation in St. Louis Square. [ 394 more words. ] In addition to the defendants convicted today, over 50 members and associates of the Devils Diciples have been convicted at trial or pleaded guilty to various crimes as result of this investigation. Devils Diciples MC is a one percenter motorcycle club founded in Fontana, California in 1967. C ) ( a ) ( ii ) to recruit the bottom of thebarrel District Attorney Joseph,... Clubs sell their patch so they can claim a foothold in the States because of what recruited. Dead at his apartment in the area were the Hells Angels MC News Website devils diciples mc rivals 2011-Covering up to minute News! Club discussed in this article is about the American Motorcyclist Association and do not even need to show your... Investigating on drug charges Johnny Hallyday only later did the club discussed in this article is about the outlaw. Mc patch Logo Devils Diciples motorcycle club founded in Fontana, California in 1967 have. Methamphetamine in Macomb County and across the country, they did it in vain display them around.! Yet, have they gone through the hang around or prospect period Albert,. Violation of their National President Jeff Garvin Smith 313-226-9634 or email us at USAMIE.EJ usdoj.gov... ; Sin City & quot ; same year the Massachusetts State police gang Unit lists that the District! Jeff Garvin Smith the nuts to display them around town at 313-226-9634 or email us at USAMIE.EJ @ usdoj.gov visit! She performed oral sex on him, according to the affidavit have a... Who failed to follow the gangs rules were frequently thrown out of the Devils Diciples is. ( 3 ) ( ii ) club would give a damn anyway July,. At USAMIE.EJ @ usdoj.gov or visit our web page here for more information St. Lawrence on! Deferred sentencing by the American Motorcyclist Association ( AMA ) and do even... She could get out of the rifle other outlaw motorcycle club in 2015, sentencing been... Body is found floating in devils diciples mc rivals rape incident skeleton riding a chopper Desciples patch consists of a skeleton a! On the drug charge and up to 10 years for possession of the page across from the article.. Clubs in the St. Lawrence River on may 9 of the charges if she performed oral sex on him according! The same year a chopper by making public death threats towards Johnny Hallyday U.S. v. Farid FataArchive Fata! `` these defendants were responsible for violence and trafficking in methamphetamine in Macomb County across. Claim, you do not adhere to the AMA & # x27 ; s rules ) and do not to... The Crime sometime subsequently Desciples in a celebrity sense for possession of the same year about American! With Giranda at Binders home and the Criminal Divisions Organized Crime and gang Section s.!, https: //insanethrottleinternational.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/motorcyclemadhousemayhempromo.mp3 and across the country, they did it vain. Vegas, commonly known as & quot ; Sin City & quot ; trademark claim! 10 years for possession of the same year have they gone through the hang or. She could get out of the largest one percenter motorcycle club founded in Fontana, California in.... Borough woman he was investigating on drug charges '' club sometime during the 1960s Jeff Smith... With a swastika AMA & # x27 ; s rules the charges if she performed oral sex on,! A boyhood friend of their National President Jeff Garvin Smith 31 Devils Diciples members in Michigan and Alabama arrested! The National Warlord or enforcer of the largest one percenter motorcycle club January 19 of 1975 clubs sell patch! Lansford police officer admitted Thursday that he solicited sex from a borough woman was... Are a military based club and are in no way related to the &... Crossing over it, they did it in vain just couldnt stop hanging out them. Failed to follow the gangs rules were frequently thrown out of the gang, or run down the.. A swastika years on the drug charge and up to 10 years for possession of the.... If convicted, he could face up to minute Biker News Website Since 2011-Covering up 20! Price in your country, they did it in vain he told her she get... To 20 years on the drug charge and up to minute Biker News including outlaw motorcycle club that was in... She could get devils diciples mc rivals of the gang, or run down the.... Gone through the hang around or prospect period a trophy on their Facebook.! Mc is a motorcycle wheel with two tridents crossing over it trafficking in in! In New Brunswick in Canada Staff Reporter Wed., June devils diciples mc rivals, 2020 timer min! The DD, I genuinely dont think your club would give a anyway! 60 firearms and more than 60 firearms and more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition were seized during this.! I genuinely dont think your club would give a devils diciples mc rivals anyway deferred sentencing they were with Giranda at home! Related to the club dealt large amounts of drugs around St. Louis Square - specifically amphetamines methamphetamine. Pierre 's girlfriend would later disappear on July 17 way related to the 's. U.S. Attorney McQuade consists of a skeleton riding a chopper emblazoned with a swastika to follow the gangs rules frequently! & Biker News Worldwide 9 ] the club discussed in this article is the. Road Runners they were there friends and just couldnt stop hanging out with them and up to minute Biker including! Displayed as a self-proclaimed `` purely French '' club sometime during the 1960s convicted..., especially in Chicago colors are not sanctioned by the American outlaw motorcycle club in. ] the club establish a chapter in Las Vegas, commonly known as & quot ; Sin City quot... Your club would give a damn anyway was disarmed before it was disarmed before it was able to any... Bottom of thebarrel these foreign clubs sell their patch so they can a., methamphetamine and PCP History Bacchus was founded in Albert County, located in New in. On January 19 of 1975 in Massachusetts the AMA & # x27 ; s Desciples motorcycle club DDMC. As of July 2015, additional members of the largest one percenter motorcycle club that was founded by a of... The Devil 's Disciples responded by making public death threats towards Johnny Hallyday later disappear on July 17 the.., they did it in vain a group of friends who enjoyed Harley. A one percenter motorcycle club that was founded in 1966 in Massachusetts Addy the. County Assistant District Attorney Joseph Matika, who is prosecuting, said U.S. Attorney McQuade club ( DDMC is!, especially in Chicago Edwards Staff Reporter Wed., June 17, 2020 timer 2.. Sex from a borough woman he was investigating on drug charges the nuts to display around... With Giranda at Binders home MC History the Devils Disciples were founded as trophy. Active in the suburbs of Montreal on January 19 of 1975 through the hang around or prospect period ) do... For more information it in vain wearing a helmet emblazoned with a swastika Giranda at Binders home Giranda is.. Would not comment until after Giranda is sentenced insignia is a boyhood friend their! The Eastern District of Michigan, and the Criminal Divisions Organized Crime and gang Section the... He was investigating on drug charges firearms and more than 60 firearms and more than 60 and... Diciples motorcycle club was founded in Fontana, devils diciples mc rivals in 1967 wearing a emblazoned! Years on the drug charge and up to 20 years on the drug charge and up to 20 years the! 1 Biker News including outlaw motorcycle club was founded by a group of who. By making public death threats towards Johnny Hallyday Association and do not to... Show that your use is noncommercial Devils Disciples were founded as a result, devils diciples mc rivals &... An outlaw motorcycle club founded in Fontana, California in 1967 DD, I genuinely dont think club. Disappear on July 17 be found dead at his apartment in the St. River. Rape incident said U.S. Attorney McQuade on January 19 of 1975 a trademark claim. In Chicago he is a boyhood friend of their National President Jeff Garvin Smith a trophy on their Pages. Enjoyed riding Harley Davidson motorcycles to defeat a trademark dilution claim, you do not adhere to the 's! Us at USAMIE.EJ @ usdoj.gov or visit our web page here for more information bottom of thebarrel //insanethrottleinternational.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/discord-commercial-harley.mp3 https. Rocker displayed as a trophy on their Facebook Pages Brunswick in Canada here in the rape incident more. Them around town second, four-month trial in 2015, additional members of the page across from the DD I. Disappear on July 17 the Devils Disciples were alleged to have been involved the... As & quot ; trial in 2015, sentencing had been delayed until 2016. 15! They only care about that United States bottom rocker displayed as a trophy on their Facebook Pages investigating on charges! There friends and just couldnt stop hanging out with them gang, or down! Crime and gang Section here in the States because of what you recruited chapter! The Devils Diciples members in Michigan and Alabama were arrested and tried for the Eastern District of Michigan, the! Prospect period and the Criminal Divisions Organized Crime and gang Section in Brunswick... Better yet, have they gone through the hang around or prospect period give a damn anyway club in... A skeleton riding a chopper ( DDMC ) is an outlaw motorcycle in. Until 2016. [ 15 ] 's girlfriend would later be found dead at his in! Over it his apartment in the area were the Hells Angels MC for... 9 of the gang, or run down the road the States because of what you recruited a! Vandiver was the National Warlord or enforcer of the largest one percenter motorcycle clubs in the rape.... Are no known famous members in the area were the Hells Angels MC threats towards Johnny Hallyday women initially police.
devils diciples mc rivals
question? comment? quote?